Splitting a coax signal

Splitting a coax signal

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Subject Author Date
Splitting a coax signal AndyLash 09-10-2006
Posted by Ed Nielsen on September 18, 2006, 10:10 am
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An engineer I am not. I stand corrected. Thanks for the heads-up on
the website.


CIAO!

Ed N.

Timothy Daniels wrote:
> Sorry to resort to Wikipedia, but it came up as the 1st hit:
>
> It says:
>
> "Signal-to-noise ratio is an engineering term for the power ratio
> between a signal (meaningful information) and the background
> noise: SNR = Psignal/Pnoise = (Asignal/Anoise)**2
>
> where P is average Power and A is RMS Amplitude. Both signal
> and noise power are measured within the system bandwidth.
>
> Because many signals have a very wide dynamic range, SNRs
> are usually expressed in terms of the logarithmic decibel scale.
> In decibels, the SNR is 20 times the base-10 logarithm of the
> amplitude ratio, or 10 times the logarithm of the power ratio:"
>
>
> Thus the power ratio and the signal amplitude ratio are related in
> their logarithms merely by a factor of 2 (20 in the case of dBs).
> This may, or it may not, conflict with your view, but to say that SNR
> is the ratio of logarithms seems a bit too complex and seems to
> have no direct engineering meaning that I can see.
>
> Here's another webpage:
> http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid7_gci213018,00.html.
>
> It says:
> "...signal-to-noise ratio, often written S/N or SNR, is a measure of
> signal strength relative to background noise. The ratio is usually
> measured in decibels (dB).
>
> "If the incoming signal strength in microvolts is Vs, and the noise
> level,
> also in microvolts, is Vn, then the signal-to-noise ratio, S/N, in
> decibels
> is given by the formula S/N = 20 log10(Vs/Vn) .
>
> "...As an example, suppose that Vs = 10.0 microvolts and Vn = 1.00
> microvolt. Then S/N = 20 log10(10.0) = 20.0 dB ."
>
> Notice that the SNR is calculated from microvolts (absolute signal
> amplitude) not as dB's above a reference level.
>
> BTW, your website seems to be down, now, so I can't check out
> your links.
>
> *TimDaniels*

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Posted by Timothy Daniels on September 18, 2006, 7:26 pm
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> An engineer I am not. I stand corrected.

I'm not an engineer, either (bachelor's in physics).
But you got me beat on CATV and satellite TV systems.

*TimDaniels*

Posted by TC on September 17, 2006, 11:10 pm
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> The vast
> majority of cable outlets in the United States are analog only, with the
> majority of those just being a jumper from the outlet to the cable-ready
> TV or VCR. In a house with 5 outlets, 3 (maybe 2) of those are likely
> to be cable-ready TVs.


this is interesting, i run into about one non-cable ready tv every
three weeks, if that.


John Q. Public decided to rearrange his room
> where he watches a cable-ready TV. The jumper isn't long enough to
> reach where he moved his TV set to, so he goes down to WallyWorld and
> buys one that has less than adequate shielding. Source of ingress.
> Rather than have an ugly cable wrapped halfway around his room, he
> decided to relocate the outlet, so he goes to the nearest home
> improvement store and buys some cable and fittings, but he doesn't want
> to spend too much so he buys some screw-on connectors and a 99-cent
> splitter and cuts the cable that goes to the existing outlet in the room
> and installs his new splitter there. 4 sources of ingress on that one.


Granted, the ingress will be a problem, but when that customer has gone
too far, and created a disaster that he cannot repair, and god willing,
he gets the proper cable guy in his house, he will HOPEFULLY ( hah)
learn his lesson. ;)



> Most drop amps have about a 2.4-3dB noise figure. That is not Signal to
> Noise Ratio (SNR), that is the amount of noise the device itself
> generates. When you add 3dB of noise but increase the signal level by
> 15dB, you may actually improve the SNR. Simple math: Say you have a
> signal level of +10dBmV and a noise figure of 2dB. Your SNR is 10:2 or
> 5:1. Insert a 15dB gain drop amp that has a noise figure of 3dB. Your
> numbers are 25:5, or the same 5:1 that you had in the first place. The
> amp had no effect on the SNR. As long as the input level is above the
> noise figure of the amplifier, you won't experience any noise problems.
> Gotta stay be below the maximum input level specified for the amp, though.


youre right, dead on, but:
you really can't, _technically_ improve a signal to noise ratio
anywhere but at the source, can you?
you'd need a lot more that a drop amp to do that, even within amp
specs...
i mean , when you amp a signal, you are amping the noise floor too..

please correct me if i am wrong...




i have to admit, i really attempt to shy away from drop amps every
chance i get, there are too many situations i have seen where
less-than-creative techs use them to boost one lousy outlet of an in
house system, rather than do ther job properly, so as a result, i just
try to do it as a last resort. in most cases , youre right, the tap is
hot enough.


> > as for 10-15 at the groundblock, on channel 4,
> > maybe.. real world, rarely, unless you are in a lab...
>
> Cable systems are designed to run out at 15-20dBmV at the tap at their
> system's highest frequency. Not a lab thing, real world


spoken in haste, true true ... after i wrote that i instantaneously
regretted having done it, _usually_ there is more than enough to play
with at the GB.




> Cable modems operate with an input signal level of -15 to +15dBmV. That
> is not just a "happen to" thing -- that is a specification. That also
> is the level of the QAM carrier, which is either 6 or 10dBbelow the
> adjacent analog carrier (depends on whether it is a 64 or 256QAM system).

+17 on 256, +15 on 64, for most, but this is one place i have to say
that, as i see most everyday, this is not usually the case.. mostly, go
above +5 on a dht or cable modem, and usually the dht is a LOT more
forgiving...and youre gonna have some pronblems... i see it almost
every day :(


Posted by Ed Nielsen on September 18, 2006, 10:18 am
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TC wrote:
>> The vast
>> majority of cable outlets in the United States are analog only, with the
>> majority of those just being a jumper from the outlet to the cable-ready
>> TV or VCR. In a house with 5 outlets, 3 (maybe 2) of those are likely
>> to be cable-ready TVs.
>
>
> this is interesting, i run into about one non-cable ready tv every
> three weeks, if that.
>
Sometimes we forget about small systems such as rural or small,
municipally owned systems that are not digital and perhaps never will be.

Alot of bedroom outlets are analog only, as are kitchen, kids' playroom,
shop or garage, etc.
>
> John Q. Public decided to rearrange his room
>> where he watches a cable-ready TV. The jumper isn't long enough to
>> reach where he moved his TV set to, so he goes down to WallyWorld and
>> buys one that has less than adequate shielding. Source of ingress.
>> Rather than have an ugly cable wrapped halfway around his room, he
>> decided to relocate the outlet, so he goes to the nearest home
>> improvement store and buys some cable and fittings, but he doesn't want
>> to spend too much so he buys some screw-on connectors and a 99-cent
>> splitter and cuts the cable that goes to the existing outlet in the room
>> and installs his new splitter there. 4 sources of ingress on that one.
>
>
> Granted, the ingress will be a problem, but when that customer has gone
> too far, and created a disaster that he cannot repair, and god willing,
> he gets the proper cable guy in his house, he will HOPEFULLY ( hah)
> learn his lesson. ;)
>
How many of them actually do? ;)
>
>

CIAO!

Ed N.

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