My dial-up modem fantasy

My dial-up modem fantasy

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Subject Author Date
My dial-up modem fantasy Green Xenon [Radium] 05-21-2008
Posted by Green Xenon [Radium] on June 6, 2008, 2:13 am
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Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
> DTC wrote:
>
>
>> Use of the word baud is outdated as it can't adequately reflect the
>> additional data load achieved by advanced modulation techniques.
>>
>> Technically speaking, 900 baud is the highest a standard "toll-quality"
>> phone line will support. So how did they get 2400 baud modems to work?
>> They didn't, they got 2400 bps modems to work. A 2400 bps modem is
>> actually a 600 baud device; but using phase modulation, they got four
>> different states per baud.
>
>
> I know that.
>
> Baud and bits-per-baud are two different things.
>
> The only way the bit-rate is the same as the baud is if you have 1 bit
> per symbol. The 2400 bps using a 600 baud is derived using 4 bits per
> symbol. 6X4=24.


So back to my question.

Wouldn't a baud of 1-symbol-per-second use only 1 Hz of bandwidth
regardless of the amount of bits-per-symbol?

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Posted by DTC on June 6, 2008, 2:51 am
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Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
> So back to my question.
>
> Wouldn't a baud of 1-symbol-per-second use only 1 Hz of bandwidth
> regardless of the amount of bits-per-symbol?

Back to my original answer, NO. You really need to revisit
Communications Theory 101.

Posted by H. Peter Anvin on June 13, 2008, 8:28 pm
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Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
> So back to my question.
>
> Wouldn't a baud of 1-symbol-per-second use only 1 Hz of bandwidth
> regardless of the amount of bits-per-symbol?

Depends on the modulation scheme, but basically yes. However, the
number of states you can support depends on your noise floor. In order
to get, say, 32768 bps over a 1 Hz channel, you would need a noise
margin of:

32768 = 1 log_2 (1 + S/N)

log_2(1+S/N) = 32768

1+S/N = 2^32768

S/N = 2^32768-1 ~ 2^32768

log_10 S/N ~ log(2)/log(10) * 32768 ~ 9864

log_10 S/N ~ 9864 B = 98640 dB

Even if you're only limited by quantum noise, this still requires a
trans-astronomical amount of power.

        -hpa

Posted by Green Xenon [Radium] on June 14, 2008, 4:30 am
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H. Peter Anvin wrote:


> Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:


>> So back to my question.
>>
>> Wouldn't a baud of 1-symbol-per-second use only 1 Hz of bandwidth
>> regardless of the amount of bits-per-symbol?


>
> Depends on the modulation scheme, but basically yes. However, the
> number of states you can support depends on your noise floor. In order
> to get, say, 32768 bps over a 1 Hz channel, you would need a noise
> margin of:
>
> 32768 = 1 log_2 (1 + S/N)
>
> log_2(1+S/N) = 32768
>
> 1+S/N = 2^32768
>
> S/N = 2^32768-1 ~ 2^32768
>
> log_10 S/N ~ log(2)/log(10) * 32768 ~ 9864
>
> log_10 S/N ~ 9864 B = 98640 dB
>
> Even if you're only limited by quantum noise, this still requires a
> trans-astronomical amount of power.


In the real world, what is the maximum amount of bits-per-symbol that
can be achieved using PSK without exceeding the dynamic range of a phone
line?

Posted by DTC on June 14, 2008, 11:10 am
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Green Xenon [Radium] wrote:
> In the real world, what is the maximum amount of bits-per-symbol that
> can be achieved using PSK without exceeding the dynamic range of a phone
> line?

Lets dispense with confusing references to bits, symbols, phase shift
keying, etc. and get down to the nitty gritty....

Answer: About 48 Kbps data rate.


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