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Posted by Ed Nielsen on April 22, 2007, 11:25 am
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In most MDUs where the cable company (or authorized contractor) installed
the cabling at their own expense, the cable company signs a Right of Entry
for a set period of time, usually 7 years. After the ROE expires, the
cabling belongs to the property and is free to be used for whatever the
property owner sees fit.
CIAO!
Ed N.
--
CIAO!
Ed N.
> "$Bill" wrote:
>> Timothy Daniels wrote:
>>>
>>> If they supply the parts and labor for the in-house wiring,
>>> they can probably legally retrieve it and/or prevent you from
>>> using it for satellite reception if you should close your account
>>> with them.
>>
>> I doubt that very much - as far as I'm concerned that's donated
>> cabling if they didn't charge you for it and if they charged you
>> for it, then it's obviously yours. They are entitled to get their
>> boxes (set top, modem, etc) back, but that's it.
>
>
> What's the legal difference between the "boxes" and the cabling?
> I recently stopped the installation for a cable TV/Internet account
> because the idiot installer had broken into our condo association's
> OTA cabling system to facilitate a room-to-room cable extension.
> His supervisor told him to rip out all the cabling that he had put in
> and to vacate the premises. Eventually, his company made the
> supervisor come out and repair the damage to our OTA cabling,
> but it wasn't until Time Warner had established that *we* owned
> all of our cabling. Apparently, the legal department has advised
> Time Warner that what cables they put in they are free to break
> into and rip out.
>
> *TimDaniels*
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Posted by Timothy Daniels on April 22, 2007, 2:10 pm
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"Ed Nielsen" wrote:
> In most MDUs where the cable company (or authorized contractor)
> installed the cabling at their own expense, the cable company signs
> a Right of Entry for a set period of time, usually 7 years. After the
> ROE expires, the cabling belongs to the property and is free to be
> used for whatever the property owner sees fit.
In the case of our MDU satellite system, the HOA owns everything -
that is part of the contract that we negotiated. But we also granted
a ROE since the MDU installer was responsible for proper
functioning of the equipment. And everything downstream of the
splitters and taps was put in for cable TV more than 20 years ago
<hee hee>. Some of our residents even used their one cable to
get both satellite TV and cable Internet by using a diplexer at both
ends of the cable.
*TimDaniels*
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Posted by Warren H on April 22, 2007, 5:20 am
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> If they supply the parts and labor for the in-house wiring,
> they can probably legally retrieve it and/or prevent you from
> using it for satellite reception if you should close your account
> with them. Here in L.A., our condo HOA chose to hire our
> own cablers to put in the cable when we heard how the cable
> company's yahoos were going to route the cables. 15 years
> later, when dbs satellite was introduced, the cable company
> wanted us to sign a 20-year exclusive use agreement in return
> for a cheap bulk account. But, we reasoned that no such "gift"
> is really free, and we turned them down. We eventually found
> out that they had realized that *we* owned our cabling and they
> wanted to block us from using it for satellite. Then, 5 yrs later,
> we added a satellite system - that uses the same cabling. We
> wouldn't have been able to do that if the cable company had
> installed our cabling.
An apartment building, condo development, co-op, and common areas of an
HOA are very different than a single residential unit. In a single
residential unit, cabling installed ceases to be personal property, and
becomes part of the real property. In the other situations, the cabling
remains personal property or trade fixtures.
The cable company can only get back the cabling *installed* in a single
residential unit if they had a lien against the property. Even then,
they would need to restore the property to it's prior condition, or pay
for damages. And they'd have to provide the labor. That's way, way
beyond what it costs to just allow the cable to become part of the real
property it's installed in. And once it's part of the real property you
own, you can repurpose it for whatever you like, as long as you
disconnect it from their network.
In the case of multi-unit residential properties, things are different.
In your state a duplex or even a four-plex may still fall under the same
rules as a single family home, but I don't believe that there are any
states where anything larger than a four-plex doesn't fall under
different property rules. And the common areas of a condo association,
co-op, or HOA definitely don't enjoy the same protections as single
family property in any state. In those situations, they most likely can
retain ownership of the cabling. They may have to restore any damage
done if they remove it, but they may also be able to elect to leave it
in place, but still prevent it from being repurposed.
As for the cable boxes and cable modems, they aren't installed in the
real property. They are mealy connected to the cable. The cable company
may also ask for that short length of cable that you connect between the
boxes and the coax outlet in the wall, as it isn't installed in the real
property, either.
If you want to confirm my interpretation of the difference between cable
installed in a single unit and a multi unit, and at what point the
distinction is made in your state, consult an attorney specializing in
real estate issues. But as for the difference in legal status between
the cable installed in a home, and the modem that's just placed there,
any licensed real estate broker should be qualified to give you a
definitive answer on that one. (And if they aren't, your state needs
better licensing standards.)
--
Warren H.
==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Maintain your landscape with Black & Decker:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker
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Posted by Timothy Daniels on April 30, 2007, 3:12 pm
If you were Registered and logged in, you could reply and use other advanced thread options
> Timothy Daniels wrote:
>> If they supply the parts and labor for the in-house wiring,
>> they can probably legally retrieve it and/or prevent you from
>> using it for satellite reception if you should close your account
>> with them. Here in L.A., our condo HOA chose to hire our
>> own cablers to put in the cable when we heard how the cable
>> company's yahoos were going to route the cables. 15 years
>> later, when dbs satellite was introduced, the cable company
>> wanted us to sign a 20-year exclusive use agreement in return
>> for a cheap bulk account. But, we reasoned that no such "gift"
>> is really free, and we turned them down. We eventually found
>> out that they had realized that *we* owned our cabling and they
>> wanted to block us from using it for satellite. Then, 5 yrs later,
>> we added a satellite system - that uses the same cabling. We
>> wouldn't have been able to do that if the cable company had
>> installed our cabling.
>
> An apartment building, condo development, co-op, and common
> areas of an HOA are very different than a single residential unit.
> In a single residential unit, cabling installed ceases to be personal
> property, and becomes part of the real property. In the other
> situations, the cabling remains personal property or trade fixtures.
>
> The cable company can only get back the cabling *installed* in
> a single residential unit if they had a lien against the property. Even
> then, they would need to restore the property to it's prior condition,
> or pay for damages. And they'd have to provide the labor. That's
> way, way beyond what it costs to just allow the cable to become
> part of the real property it's installed in. And once it's part of the
> real property you own, you can repurpose it for whatever you like,
> as long as you disconnect it from their network.
>
> In the case of multi-unit residential properties, things are different.
> In your state a duplex or even a four-plex may still fall under the
> same rules as a single family home, but I don't believe that there
> are any states where anything larger than a four-plex doesn't fall
> under different property rules. And the common areas of a condo
> association, co-op, or HOA definitely don't enjoy the same
> protections as single family property in any state. In those situations,
> they most likely can retain ownership of the cabling. They may have
> to restore any damage done if they remove it, but they may also be
> able to elect to leave it in place, but still prevent it from being re-
> purposed.
>
> As for the cable boxes and cable modems, they aren't installed in the
> real property. They are mealy connected to the cable. The cable
> company may also ask for that short length of cable that you connect
> between the boxes and the coax outlet in the wall, as it isn't installed
> in the real property, either.
>
> If you want to confirm my interpretation of the difference between
> cable installed in a single unit and a multi unit, and at what point the
> distinction is made in your state, consult an attorney specializing in
> real estate issues. But as for the difference in legal status between
> the cable installed in a home, and the modem that's just placed there,
> any licensed real estate broker should be qualified to give you a
> definitive answer on that one. (And if they aren't, your state needs
> better licensing standards.)
>
> --
> Warren H.
Regarding the difference between cable installed in a single unit and
a multi-unit building, I had a conversation with one of our owners
who is a licensed Real Estate Attorney in the State of California,
specialising in home owner association law. She works in the lien
division of a well-known HOA law firm in Los Angeles. She said
that she knows of no distinction in the law between cabling installed
in the walls of a single family residence and in the common area
(i.e. in the walls) of an MDU building, and she asked rhtorically,
"Why should there be?" Like an attorney, she did not deny what you
stated, but merely that she does not, in her legal training and experience,
know it to be true. Perhaps you have had contact with attorneys
more specialized in utility company law, or perhaps you have been
brain-washed by your company's corporate culture. Either way, the
ownership rights of cabling installed by a cable company and the right
to control its usage past the demarcation point is still cloudy.
I suspect that the normal procedure by a cable company installing
the cable itself in an MDU building is to require a contract that
guarantees it sole usage past the demarcation point since much
of the cabling installed would not immediately be used to support
a subscription and thus not result in immediate cash flow (unless
there were a bulk account covering ALL units). In a single family
residence, in contrast, there is a guarantee of an immediate cash
flow that would pay for the cabling job. That would explain why our
cable company was so surprised to find that they had no contract
with us - if they had installed the cabling themselves, there WOULD
have been a contract, and it is such a contract that would make
legally clear what the cable company's rights are. And that is why
they turned around and offered us a discount on a bulk subscription
in return for an exclusive usage contract - they knew satellite TV
was coming.
*TimDaniels*
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Posted by Warren H on April 30, 2007, 7:44 pm
If you were Registered and logged in, you could reply and use other advanced thread options
> Regarding the difference between cable installed in a single unit
> and a multi-unit building, I had a conversation with one of our owners
> who is a licensed Real Estate Attorney in the State of California,
> specialising in home owner association law. She works in the lien
> division of a well-known HOA law firm in Los Angeles. She said
> that she knows of no distinction in the law between cabling
> installed
> in the walls of a single family residence and in the common area
> (i.e. in the walls) of an MDU building, and she asked rhtorically,
> "Why should there be?" Like an attorney, she did not deny what you
> stated, but merely that she does not, in her legal training and
> experience,
> know it to be true. Perhaps you have had contact with attorneys
> more specialized in utility company law, or perhaps you have been
> brain-washed by your company's corporate culture. Either way, the
> ownership rights of cabling installed by a cable company and the
> right
> to control its usage past the demarcation point is still cloudy.
I'll give you a slightly different example to help illustrate the
difference.
(First off, there are only two kinds of property: Real property, and
Personal property. So when I speak of personal property, that doesn't
necessarily mean a person owns it. A business could own it. Personal
property is simply anything that isn't real property.)
You own your home. You have a cabinet installed. That cabinet when it's
sitting in the kitchen waithing to be installed is personal property.
When it gets installed, it becomes part of the real property. When you
move, you don't get to take the installed cabinet with you because it is
now part of the house.
You own a business. You have a cabinet installed. That cabinet when it's
sitting in the middle of the store is personal property. When it gets
installed, it does not become part of the real property. It is a trade
fixture, and remains personal property.
See the difference?
In a single family home, there is no question, the cabinet becomes real
property. In a factory, a store, or any other facility that's clearly
commercial, the cabinet remains personal property because it's a trade
fixture. Multi-unit residential property is a tricky animal, and
different states may make draw the line differently. Inside a
residential unit is also going to be different than in common areas.
In a single family home, there is no question that in order for the
cable company to maintain a proprietary interest in the cable that's
installed, they would need a lien. They can't maintain a proprietary
interest in the cable once it becomes part of the real property.
In a commercial property, the cable company can keep a proprietary
interest in the trade fixtures they install if it's in the installation
contract. Even if they don't retain a proprietary interest in the cable,
it belongs to the business owner, not the landlord (the owner of the
real property). Whoever owns the trade fixture has a right to take it
with them, even after a sale of the real property, assuming that they
return the real property to pre-installation condition.
If someone occupieing an apartment installes a light fixture, before it
is installed, it's the renter's personal property. Once it's installed,
it's the landlord's real property, and the renter technically cannot
remove and restore without the real property owner giving up title to
the property. If a business is renting the property, when they install
that light fixture, it remains their personal property, and they can
remove and restore without requesting the real property owner give up
title because the real property owner never had title to the fixture.
But what about installing a fixture in a non-residental portion of an
apartment building, or the common area of a condo or co-op?
The question is when does personal property become real property. In the
case of a single family residential unit, it's clearly when that
personal property is installed. In the case of clearly commercial
property, that personal property can remain personal property even after
being installed because it's a trade fixture. The issue is where does
multi-unit residential property fall in this spectrum. And don't forget,
the common areas are different than the individual residential units,
too.
I would suggest that you did not present the question correctly to your
attorney friend. And I would also suggest that those situations in the
middle of the spectrum are exactly why attornies stay in business.
Absent of any clearly applicable statutes, it is quite possible for
there to be a difference of opinion based just on the Common Law that is
the foundation of our legal system. There can also be a difference in
opinion as to whether specific statues apply in a given case. So when
your attorney asked you "why would there be a difference", that could
also be taken as, "which side of the arguement do you want me to take",
as people on both sides will easily be able to find attornies who can
support either side of the arguement.
> I suspect that the normal procedure by a cable company installing
> the cable itself in an MDU building is to require a contract that
> guarantees it sole usage past the demarcation point since much
> of the cabling installed would not immediately be used to support
> a subscription and thus not result in immediate cash flow (unless
> there were a bulk account covering ALL units). In a single family
> residence, in contrast, there is a guarantee of an immediate cash
> flow that would pay for the cabling job. That would explain why
> our
> cable company was so surprised to find that they had no contract
> with us - if they had installed the cabling themselves, there WOULD
> have been a contract, and it is such a contract that would make
> legally clear what the cable company's rights are. And that is why
> they turned around and offered us a discount on a bulk subscription
> in return for an exclusive usage contract - they knew satellite TV
> was coming.
Nope. It comes down to the difference between when personal property
becomes real property, and how easily they can keep a proprietary
interest in the cable itself, versus what the benefit of retaining that
proprietary interest in the cable may be.
If there wasn't a difference, as soon as the MDU's contract for service
ended, they could simply use the cable left behind for whatever they
wanted to use it for, just the same way a homeowner can use the cable
installed in their property.
So in one case, the cable is personal property, specifically a trade
fixture, while in the other case, the cable becomes a part of the real
property. Simple concepts. What's questionable is where is the line
drawn. Single-family homes are clearly on one end of the spectrum. MDU's
are in the middle, and given that the cable companies routinely claim to
retain proprietary rights in the cable they install in MDU's, it's quite
clear that there is a difference.
If there isn't a difference, then either homeowners wouldn't be able to
convert their inside cabling for their own use, or the contracts that
the cable companies have with many MDU's would be unenforceable. But
again, you could easily get attorneys who would be willing to argue any
side of the issue, and offer compelling support for their position.
Our best bet is to go with what is practiced every day. And that is that
the cable companies treat single family homes differently than MDU's
regardless of the variations in state laws that could apply. The
practice is there is a difference, and that's what it comes down to.
--
Warren H.
==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Maintain your landscape with Black & Decker:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker
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